Criminal in the family [Archive]

maggiefishblue

06-11-2006, 03:09 PM

Hi All,

According to the 1881 census I have a criminal in the family - shock horror :redface:

I have been looking for some time to find out what he was guilty of etc. and in my quest I have found this very interesting site - some of the crimes are fascinating and the punishments seem extreme in this day and age

http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/calendarofprisoners

I still haven't found my ancestors crime - he was imprisoned in Parkhurst - but am having fun searching :smilie:

Maggie

Len

06-11-2006, 05:09 PM

I new it I new it, !!!!!!!!! :confused: We have a criminal in our midst, :smilie: I remember saying to Sally when Maggie joined " this girl looks a bit shifty to me Sally old girl " :biggrin: And Sally looked up from the floor where she had collapsed (mainly due to the last bottle being off) :smilie: and said well Len lets give her a chance hic, I reluctantly agreed all my fears being swept aside by rank and authority yet again. :redface:

I remember Maggie preaching the good word to us all telling us all about the evils of drink, and at the same time there where little slips ant her odd tipple, do you all remember I do, hic :rolleyes:

I was worried at the time now it is confirmed on official paper, that she is related to the criminal fraternity, Heaven knows what is going to happen next I just dread to think, we had all that trouble over the time machine and the bar, can you all remember who fought to have the key to the time machine bar, not innocent little me, but maggie. :eek:

Now is a chance for Criss to get another Karma star with all her scientific and medical training she can prove that the criminal trait in Maggies family is hereditary and no cure is possible, so now is the time for decisions I shall have take the bar key for safe keeping. :cool:

And poor Kaye who was exiled to the land of Oz by mistake, can come home, all is forgiven, I will save her half this bottle I have taken into safe keeping from the Time Machine bar, hic, I believe the Queen is writing her a pardon at this very moment. the trouble is if Kaye returns it could end out short heat wave. :p

O dear problems problems always something, I think I will return to my den for another little tipple. :confused:

maggiefishblue

06-12-2006, 08:22 AM

Now steady on Len - I don't know what his criminal conviction was yet? :biggrin: It might not have been drink related at all - in fact I doubt that it was because my family are/were sobriety itself? :p

I only drink socially - I can't help it if I have a huge social life? :wink: Anyway, some of the antics of those who shall remain nameless are enough to drive anyone to drink? :rolleyes:

Sally won't turn me off the TM - I am an invaluable crew member? :cool: anyway, I know too much? :p

As for Kaye returning from Oz with a pardon from the Queen - it ain't gonna happen - the Queen is too busy with her birthday parties to sign any pieces of paper.? We need Kaye in Oz anyway - that's where all the best eye-candy is and she has an uncanny knack of being able to lure them onto the TM.

If Chris were to make me a subject of her scientific studies it might open a whole new can of worms? :rolleyes: there again, it could be quite interesting? :wink:

So Len, settle down and have another drink? :biggrin:

Maggie

Len

06-12-2006, 09:34 AM

I new I should not have taken on Maggie, :confused: after all she has all the assets of the Hanley Bicycle Co behind her, http://www.rogerco.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/anew/cycle1.jpg :cool:

and looking at this picture it looks like she has fetched out her big gun's yet again, :biggrin: If this is true and your relations are not guilty of being drunk in charge of a time machine, then is it a possibility they took the crown jewels, And Queen Lis does not know yet as good plastic ones are in there place?

I am beginning to sort this plot out now, this is why Kaye was exiled to Oz, she was Mrs big in the plot, Queen Liz found out and had her posted over seas, :rolleyes: its all clear to me now, and I notice Criss has gone very quite I do wonder what part she played in this conspiracy, as if i need to ask. :rolleyes:

And no one mentions Marty any more, did he find out something of international importance, with mind boggling consequences, and confide in the wrong person and has now been disposed of, the plot is thickening by the day. :p

My wife thinks we are all crazy, but I know she think she is part of the plot, but I also know the truth, and I have the key to the time machine bar. :eek:

And thinking of all these worries while I have the key to the time machine bar, I better go and have another drink to steady my nerves, Before the aliens come and abduct me. :redface:

maggiefishblue

06-12-2006, 09:47 AM

Where did you find that picture Len? I've been looking for it everywhere :biggrin: That's me and my bodyguard cycling around HC looking for criminals :p I think my bodyguard looks quite fetching in that oufit - the dress suits to a tee :p

Maggie

PS The crown jewels are papier mache - plastic is sooo common :p

kaye

06-12-2006, 09:57 AM

Maggie, how possitively smashing to have a criminal in the family, you lucky person you. ?:smilie:

The closest I've been able to manage is 3 Court Martials...G G Gramps twice in Canada 1844 (and thrown into Royal Artillery Jail, demoted and pay docked) and G Gramps went nutty as a fruitcake after 8 years in Bengal, he was drummed out of the regiment and he and wife and kids were sent back to the UK in disgrace...he sadly died 4 years later, destitute, aged 48 ?:mad:

I have used the website before and agree that the crimes were mostly rather petty for the harsh sentences, but then most of Oz's convicts were transported for 7 years for stealing a lump of bread or a peice of lace....most of them definately not what we classify as criminals today. ?:mad:

Have you tried this website ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/your_history/family/mugshot_1.shtml

Or this one (it's Coventry though)(there's a criminal section list of 7,000)

http://www.covkid.org.uk/

I must away, as I have some visitors arrive...shall be back later.

Kaye. ?:smilie:

maggiefishblue

06-12-2006, 10:15 AM

Hi Kaye,

I've just had a quick look at the mugshots - what a poor group of people they are... this is a very interesting website - I shall look in more detail later.

My ancestor was in Parkhurst in 1881 - however he died in 1952 aged 93 at Hinckley according to my sources - he would have been about 22 years old in 1881. I have only just started researching him - I was sent some information on my family recently and when I looked up the 1881 census there he was :redface: I need to look him up on other censuses now to follow it through - but any sites with criminals is interesting anyway don't you think?

On the site I posted I looked up the name of another ancestor and it came up as a criminal - but I don't think it is the right person - there are things which suggest that. However, what was interesting was his 'crime' - he was tried for 'Bastardy' :eek: I'm not sure whether that means that he was illegitimate and this was a crime or whether he created an illegitimate child (if you see what I mean) and was tried for that - what do you think?

Maggie :smilie:

kaye

06-12-2006, 11:53 AM

Maggie, is this the right Parkhurst prison ?

http://www.blacksheepancestors.com/uk/parkhurst1.shtml

Time to sleep here,

Kaye.? :smilie:

maggiefishblue

06-12-2006, 12:59 PM

Hi Kaye,

Yes - here he is:

Frederick Grewcock 1857 Barwell, Leicestershire

I just need to find out the reason he was there now ... :smilie:

I thought I'd have a look to see if I could find out whether Parkhurst (which is a maximum security prison at the moment) took a particular type of criminal in 1881 - that might lead me somewhere :biggrin:

Speak to you again tomorrow.
Maggie

maggiefishblue

06-12-2006, 01:37 PM

Found this interesting piece of information about Parkhurst so I thought I'd share it:

http://www.wightonline.co.uk/parkhurst-heritage/history.html

You can also buy souvenirs here - I like the look of the spyglass for the prison door - quite useful on the bar door on the TM I think :biggrin:

Maggie

Len

06-12-2006, 02:01 PM

I to liked the look of the spy glass for fitting in the door, :cool:

I could have one here at home fitted in the bathroom door, To see what takes every one eles so long to do it there. :biggrin:

maggiefishblue

06-12-2006, 02:08 PM

Oh dear Len - you are naughty :eek:

kaye

06-13-2006, 05:26 AM

Yes Len, be good or you'll get in trouble. :biggrin:

kaye

06-13-2006, 05:57 AM

Hi Maggie, :smilie:

Well you've started me on yet another genealogy tangent....I have an illigitimate child born to my G Grandmother's sister, sometime back I ordered her birth cert and sure enough she had no father. In all the relevant census' she is living with her Grandparents, so now I have to see if I can find any bastardy bonds that may show who her father was.... :confused:

I found this info on bastardy bonds .....looked it up, 'cos I don't know too much about it yet. :redface: .....

Bastardy Bonds/Agreements were used to determine which adult male was to support a child.

The Bastardy Bond's were an obligation placed upon the father of illegitimate children. The bond was typically made by request of the clergy of the mother's parish. The purpose was to keep the parish from having to pay for the support of the child.

.....Tried for bastardy, may mean that the bond had not been honoured by him... not supporting the child ? ? ?

Your Frederick is very interesting, so please keep us up to date with what you find out.....His surname is also very interesting...wonder if he ever tried to change it LOL :eek:....maybe thats why he was in the slammer :rolleyes:

I love looking at old mug shots, they are very helpful when your having a bad hair /skin day....after looking at only a few, one starts to feel somewhat glamorous :rolleyes: Poor forlorn looking creatures aren't they ?

Kaye. :smilie:

Len

06-13-2006, 07:22 AM

Hi Kaye, I used to think it was just the odd person who was unfortunate to be born out of wedlock and suffer the stigma in those far off days, But research about four years ago showed that at least 30% of births in the 1850s + where conceived out of wedlock.

A more ongoing research project is all ready showing the figure of 30% may be to low and could be even higher, I became a little interested in the subject when I found my father was born out of wedlock, But I am fortunate in that I believe I have found my biological grand father, A Mr king who was a road working from Upton on Seven.

He later married my grand mother a few months after the birth of my father, so I cannot be to hard on him, I look around today and see countless young girls pushing prams but I am assured the figure is now lower for births out of wedlock than it was in 1900.

I do wonder how my Grand mother Alice fared with her family once she announced she was pregnant with my father, as my lot seemed a rather religious lot.

all seemed to go well for a few years, then she got pregnant with her second child,
Her daughter May died a day after her birth and Alice a few days after from TB.

when I found this out it really upset me, I felt my quest had failed, but looking on the bright side, she did marry my grand dad and she did have five years as a married women even if she died at the young age of 27.

I still wish I had had the courage to ask my father about his family as I got older, But I still remember the warning that I got as a youngster, and can still see him standing there telling me I do not want to know and threat of what would happen if i pursued the matter.

I think looking back he had an inner fear of me finding out he was born out of wedlock.

kaye

06-13-2006, 10:33 AM

Hi Len,? :smilie:

I really do think that even though the statistics for illigitimacy were pretty high back then, that it was a social stigma right into the 20th century and I don't think it would have been very nice having to live it down in a small village.? :redface:

My dear Dad had a fear all his life that he was illigitimate, probably why he never spoke of his life in Coventry..sadly I only obtained his birth cert after he had past away, I would have loved to have had him see it and know that he wasn't after all.
Of course it didn't help that his mother left him over there when he was a young boy (she came to Oz with one of the Coventry silk weaving factories) and Dad didn't come out until 16 years later...isn't it silly, because todays kids would just bowl straight up to their mother and demand to know !

I do have a lady that had two illigitimate children before she married into my mother's Staffordshire family. He was a widower with children and then they went on to have children together, but her previous children were deposited elsewhere....one with her father and one with another family and the census says he was a grandchild...real easy to find out who the father was LOL :wink:

I don't think it would have been the nicest of things to have to 'confess' to being pregnant...rather daunting, in fact terrifying, especially if they were Wesleyan Methodist or some other very strict religion.? :eek:

Isn't it strange that my Grandmother's name was Alice too ?? Alice May, but then they had to spoil it and stick a Winifred in there as well....ghastly name. :mad:

Kaye. :smilie:

Also I have some early deaths from TB too.

kaye

06-13-2006, 11:33 AM

Hi Sally,? :smilie:

Additional Options isn't working again...maybe Senior Member Len busted it !? :biggrin:

Kaye.

Ahh..silly me..I now realise that I was on the wrong board for posting a picture...doh :redface:

Len

06-13-2006, 12:16 PM

I do wonder why the innocent are allways blamed :confused: could it be because they are jealous of me now I am now a Superior member :rolleyes:

maggiefishblue

06-13-2006, 02:10 PM

Hi Kaye,

The Bastardy Bond information is interesting - I have found this which explains it for those of us (like me :smilie:) who don't know much about it

http://www.primeroots.com/bastardy.htm

(Notice the name of one of the example reputed fathers - quite appropriate I think :biggrin:)

It seems that failure to pay up could lead to a court case.

Just as a matter of interest - someone on my family tree - the brother of my gggrandmother was a batchelor right through to the 1881 census, where he had a 'housekeeper' who had two young children (he was 63 by then) one of whom was only three weeks old. On the actual census document it says, next to No Occupation, 'N.B. Here of Sufferance' :rolleyes: In the 1891 census he was married to the housekeeper and the children bore his name ... perhaps the work of the Bastardy Bond - he also had a further daughter age 6 :eek: what stamina the man must have had :wink:

Maggie :smilie:

PS Yes Kaye, Grewcock is an interesting name :p (it was Groocock in the 18th century - I have managed to trace them back to 1545 so far). I have other 'unusual' names on my tree too eg. Bladder :redface: - perhaps we should have an Unusual Names strand on the Message Board :wink:

maggiefishblue

06-13-2006, 02:19 PM

Hi it's me again :smilie:

I've just found this - it's a copy of the original documents and makes interesting reading:

http://fh.sheppardfamily.us/cordy/bbonds.htm

Note the name of the father - tee hee :wink:

Maggie

chrisg

06-13-2006, 05:06 PM

Hi Maggie

will also use this information as I came across a potential illegitimate child in my maternal rellies living with my grandmother's sister and her large brood - the child was written in the 1891 census as being her grandchild but I'm struggling to find 'its' birth rellies

Chris :cool:

PS do I detect another senior member coming to fruition before the end of this week :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

kaye

06-14-2006, 05:38 AM

Hi Maggie, :smilie:

Thats a very interesting site...I've copied off the bonds...that way I know what they are like and shall keep looking to see if I can find anything for my lass. :smilie:

Incidently, she actually was the executor of my G Grandfather's Will, who was her uncle by marriage...she also inherited a large sum of money from him, so I think she's worth thoroughly researching....I would also like to know what she did with his army medals :confused:.....

Kaye. :smilie:

kaye

06-14-2006, 05:48 AM

Also just looked at the primeroots site, briefly, and shall really concentrate on it tonight (instead of stalking Sir Len)? :eek:

Thanks Maggie? :smilie:

Kaye.

maggiefishblue

06-14-2006, 08:12 AM

Hi Kaye,

You seem to have your hands full with that young lady - let us know how you get on with your research.

I can't understand the reason for people disposing of their family's War Medals can you? - although I expect some of the reasons were financial. I had seen my Dad's medals once - shown to me ages ago by my Mum, but my Dad would never talk about them - in fact he would never talk about the war at all (he was a gunner in the Navy). I have been able to find out stuff over the years from my Mum and from peicing things together through looking through his papers - I have managed to find information about all of the ships he served on through the internet.

I am going to display Dad's medals in a frame with photos of his ships and of him and his mates to be passed down to my grandchildren, once I've collated all of the information I am reseaching.

I looked on the Archive site and located and bought one of my Grandfathers medal records - the other one is more difficult because his name was Smith and as you can imagine there are scores of them - I don't know much about his war experiences except that he was a corporal.

Maggie